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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week has a vision, a society where everyone can live healthy lives, both physically and mentally, and where no one is left behind.

 

[00:00:10] Hans Kluge

Suffering for every individual is terrible, and we have to alleviate basically every human being's suffering. We cannot have health without peace. Peace is the most urgent medicine.

 

[00:00:33] Melissa Fleming

Dr. Hans Kluge is the World Health Organization Regional Director for Europe. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Hans.

 

[00:00:54] Hans Kluge

Thank you. Thank you, Melissa.

 

[00:00:56] Melissa Fleming

Hans, you took up this job in February 2020. That was just as COVID-19 was becoming known and it was hitting the world. And WHO was, I believe, one of the first to raise the alarm bells. And I just wonder, do you remember how you felt back then just starting this job? Did you recognize that you were about to be working on the biggest pandemic in recent history?

 

[00:01:30] Hans Kluge

Well, it coincided exactly with the start of the COVID-19. I always say that when I started five years ago, I inherited a very quiet region. I had my vision well set. But then, of course, the whole world turned upside down. And not only the COVID-19. We have two terrible wars. Between Ukraine and Russia. Both are member states in my region. And then there is the terrible conflict between Israel and Gaza. Israel belonging to my region, Gaza to another region, which is also another complication. So, in that sense, I always say to my friends and family, 'I never thought that my experience in the beginning of my career - working five years with Doctors Without Borders, MSF, in some of the most tough circumstances on earth - would serve me that well as a Regional Director.'

 

 

 

[00:02:24] Melissa Fleming

As a Regional Director for Europe. Interesting. You just mentioned that Israel is part of the Europe region as defined by WHO. Can you just describe your region?

 

[00:02:35] Hans Kluge

Yes. So, from the six regions, the pan-European region is the one with the largest number of member states - 53. So, it has the European Union, but then the whole former Soviet Union bloc, including the five Central Asian countries, the Caucasus, T¨¹rkiye and Israel. So, it goes from Greenland down to Vladivostok.

 

[00:02:57] Melissa Fleming

Do you remember, though, when thinking just about the emergence of COVID-19, just as you began this role, how you felt personally then about the job that you were about to take on?

 

[00:03:14] Hans Kluge

I had a bit. How should I say...? I was the first candidate in history who during my campaign went to all 53 countries. I'm a marathon runner, but this was the biggest marathon in my life. I went in all 50 countries. And I asked the Minister of Health and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, 'What do you think this office is doing well? What do you think is messed up and should be changed?' And that gave me such a source of information to quickly build my vision - United Action for Better Health. And I had a very good grasp what the countries wanted because my vision was that this office has to be relevant for each of the 53 countries. It's a very big challenge because we have resource-low countries, some of the richest countries as well. To make a policy responsible for all 53 is quite a bit of a challenge.

But I am very happy that the four priorities which were put forth at that time were tested by the COVID-19. It was mental health, immunization, behavioural and cultural insights, and digital health. And actually, the COVID-19 kind of validated those four, which became even more important. But of course, I mean, this was a time of unknowns, really. But what I did do, and I think it's thanks to the fact that I used to work in emergencies with MSF, I reprofiled... I took the blunt decision to reprofile the whole office to COVID-19. All hands on deck. So not that COVID-19 was to be handled only by my emergency programme, but basically everyone had to work on the COVID-19.

Probably looking back maybe a little bit too much, because what happened in my region and globally is that the basic programmes suffered. We now see the out... Basically the [inaudible] on mental health. We didn't do enough on cancer screening, which was disrupted. We see cervical cancer increasing. We see the diagnosis of tuberculosis increasing, which was halted. HIV. Countries have at the same time to manage crises but ensure also the routine, daily, basic health services. And that's what WHO can really be very helpful to the countries.

 

[00:05:43] Melissa Fleming

I wonder is there¡­? When you think back to the pandemic, is there an experience or an incident that really sticks in your mind in terms of the seriousness of it and the devastation it was causing?

 

 

 

[00:06:01] Hans Kluge

What I remember it was when I went to Bosnia Herzegovina. And Bosnia-Herzegovina is a federated country. But when I arrived, very exceptional, the three presidents were there to meet me and they were telling, 'When the whole world is in fire many UN agencies, most of them, they kept their car in the garage. But you, Dr. Kluge, you went out to help to put down the fire. And we know that you also didn't have the vaccines in your backpack. But you calmed down the nation. You came out with your mask and told through the television what needed to be done and gave a sense of reassurance that we're going to make it.'

And the same happened in the host country, Denmark, which is a country which managed the COVID-19 very, very well and would not reach out so much. But actually, I remember very well one Saturday. I think it was the first Saturday since [inaudible] that I could be with my family. I got a call from the Minister of Foreign Affairs whether I would agree to join three ministers in an urgent press conference. And this was when in Denmark they have a huge mink industry. When COVID-19 was detected in the minks and what had to be done - all culled or not. So actually, I dropped everything, and I went to stand also in uncertainty together with the three ministers to speak to the nation.

And what hit me in Denmark is that in terms of uncertainty that the Prime Minister in the evening through television was singing songs together with the whole nation. So, actually, that was quite emotional to say, 'Listen, we are going to get through this uncertainty together.' So, the unity is very important.

Unfortunately, the other thing I remember is that even in countries with strong public health practitioners, if the politicians didn't want to take the evidence, you're powerless. And really, many, many people died. I think that one of the persons I continue to dialogue was Dr. Anthony Fauci. And I think they calculated even how many hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives just because of fake news not to be vaccinated. So, this is one of the big lessons. We have to think how can we keep trust in UN, in WHO, in science?

 

[00:08:37] Melissa Fleming

Absolutely. I mean, before... I really would love to talk about trust and vaccines and vaccine disparity and equity. But just going back to that moment, because you're responsible for Europe and this was before the vaccine. I'm thinking of northern Italy. What was your response to what was happening there - the overwhelming situation in the hospitals and the incredible number of deaths?

 

[00:09:07] Hans Kluge

It was overwhelming. Really overwhelming. I went in February 2020 to Italy to stand with an amazing Minister of Health - Roberto Speranza. I never spoke to so many journalists. Meanwhile, I'm a bit used, but that time... My goodness, I mean, there were previously 100. And there were these questions: 'Is it true that you can cure COVID-19 with anti-malarials and all kind of things?' And we were overwhelmed. But we were standing together and going back to ancient public health. You know, we have the public health measures, which is risk communication, which is social distancing, which is washing your hands.

Actually, we had to go back to the basics, really. What my father, as a medical doctor, used to do 50, 60 years ago. So going back to the basics is very important. And to tell the people what you know and especially what you don't know. I think that we could have done better. What we don't know and that it was new. Because people thought we were flip flopping because masks, no masks, this, not that. So, we had to explain a bit better that this was a new virus. I mean, the problem is that we had to advise countries to make policy in the absence of that evidence because the virus was faster than us.

 

[00:10:42] Melissa Fleming

In retrospect, how would you have communicated differently or better as WHO or you personally?

 

[00:10:50] Hans Kluge

I think that we did a lot on the communication, but it is very important to listen to the people, particularly the skeptical people. And a lot of people who are skeptical to take the public health measures had legitimate questions. But it had to be explained. I mean, there's always a hard core who is anti-vax and anti-everything, and we're not going to try to change them. But most of the people are sitting on the fence. So, we have to be better to explain. And I'm very, very adamant in this also to my communications team, 'Speak simple language, use metaphors, and then use what I call trusted messengers in the community.'

But I think it's also very important to explain to the people that we had incredible success. Usually, it takes about ten years to develop a new vaccine. I mean, we had a whole bunch of vaccines in one plus years. This is unprecedented. So sometimes you're also a little bit too modest. What we're doing now is doing simulation exercises for new pandemics involving politicians. It's very important to engage with politicians and tell which important role they have in public health.

 

 

 

[00:12:10] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned your concern about what you called fake news. I mean, we live, and we had the first pandemic in the social media era. What did you experience during COVID-19 in this social media era that really concerned you?

 

[00:12:27] Hans Kluge

Well, the one thing I will never forget is that my wife got scared to death. There was a guy from Italy calling on our private number - we have no clue how he got it - to threaten our family. I mean, that was the first time that my family thought, 'Oh, I mean, this is serious business here.' And then we saw what happened...

 

[00:12:45] Melissa Fleming

What was the threat?

 

[00:12:46] Hans Kluge

The threat is that we should back off with advising on public health measures and the vaccines. I mean, there has to be a bottom-up approach. Work with influencers and sportspeople who can help us to make common sense to the debate. At the same time, if there are threats and physical threats, I mean, there social media have to be... There has to be some boundaries as well. You cannot call for violence and hatred. This is a step too far. So there has to be some kind of ethical principles there.

 

[00:13:26] Melissa Fleming

There always were anti-vaxxers and a certain number of vaccine skeptics. But this reached a new high also thanks to social media. To what extent did social media have a detrimental impact on the trust in vaccines, not just COVID-19 vaccines, but all vaccines?

 

[00:13:52] Hans Kluge

Well, we anticipated this, that an anti-vax feeling toward the COVID-19 vaccine would have a spillover effect. And we see the so-called "zero-dose children", it means children who never had any vaccine is increasing. So, this is something definitely to be tackled. But here I also would like to bridge to the pharmaceutical industry that they also have a social responsibility, really. Because there was this huge issue of inequity. And then it also creates distrust in what's in the vaccines. And, of course, the vaccines that were approved by WHO have very strict I mean, safety and efficacy standards. But I understand. Equity is very important.

We see it again with the mpox. I have been calling for global solidarity with Africa because there is still a very bad taste with the COVID-19 when countries were hoarding and sitting on the vaccines. So, this also contributes to distrust. So, in that sense, member states and governments also have to take their responsibility. You cannot shout for solidarity until a problem arises in one continent and then close your borders and hoard your vaccines. And then again go... And this is very tricky.

And there the European region has to do some soul searching also. I mean, the whole world is a bastion of viruses and now with the globalization. So, we need to really hold the fort here to continue investing in health and in public health. And I think the link with climate change, the link with security is very important. And that's, I think, how we have to be a little bit more smarter.

 

[00:15:44] Melissa Fleming

Absolutely. And climate change I know that WHO has been saying for a long time is going to have, or already is having, a huge impact on public health. How are you seeing the effects of climate change affecting the health of people in your region?

 

[00:16:03] Hans Kluge

The most visible impact are the deaths due to heat. This is the number one manifestation of climate change. There were about 62,000 people last year who passed away, particularly the youngest and the elderly. And ministers are coming and saying, 'Listen, usually during the summer our health systems have a break. Our health systems can breathe a little bit before when autumn and winter arrive, and you have the respiratory viruses which come back. But now even during the summer, they cannot have a break because our ambulances, our intensive care units are getting overwhelmed due to heart attacks, strokes due to the heat.' So, we are stepping up our actions on heat action plans. That's number one.

I was also the first Regional Director in history who went to Greenland. In Greenland, I could... I mean, that was incredible. I was standing in front of the huge ice fjords which in front of my eyes basically were melting. We have a lot of consequences, including the resurgence of new bacteria and viruses. So, this is very, very tangible.

 

 

 

[00:17:29] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned that even before you embarked on this job and even before COVID-19, one of the pillars that you chose for your mandate was mental health. What are your biggest concerns about mental health and young people in today's world?

 

[00:17:49] Hans Kluge

So the concerns. Number one remains stigma and discrimination, including among the healthcare workers. You know, we have to destigmatize it. I always say, 'It is okay not to be okay. We need to take mental health out of the dark corner and speak about it.' And I think we have made a lot of progress globally on that one.

The second one is for the youngsters who need specialized help. In many countries, including my own, there are huge waiting lists. I mean, this is not acceptable. I mean, if a youngster is in trouble and has to wait for weeks or months to be admitted. And maybe even committing suicide before it happens. That's something that we really have to fight against. And it's possible. What we have to do is to de-institutionalize. It means to embed the people with mental health issues into the community, really, and have home visits, have buddies. I mean, there's lots of evidence around this, but we have to disseminate it and still increase the political commitment.

And then from our service we see that one out of five boys and three out of five girls aged 15 years feel lonely most of the time or the whole time. I cannot stress this enough. I always say loneliness is a killer. To be lonely¡­ And the lockdowns have not helped there. But this actually is also in the elderly population. Elderly people are also very, very lonely. So here again, I always say solutions do not have to be expensive necessarily. The social network is so important. Connecting. Social inclusion of family and friends. And that's why I was calling during the COVID-19, 'Knock on the door of your neighbour, if you haven't heard anything for one day. Can you help someone to do some shopping? Say a word.'  Again, we come back to communication. It's very, very important.

 

[00:20:17] Melissa Fleming

I wonder, did you see...? I know you have daughters. Did you see the COVID-19 period have any effect on their mental health or those of any of your family members?

 

[00:20:32] Hans Kluge

Absolutely. And that's why I realized¡­ I mean, my daughters we cannot tell that they're from a vulnerable family. They are still very privileged. So, can you imagine, right, for people in more vulnerable... Or that had to... Yes, absolutely. So, the first question they asked me, 'When you were on holiday in France a couple of weeks ago, that this mpox, are we going to go in lockdown again?'

So, then I realized even, and especially with only one case of mpox, I have to go out. And that's when I went to the media to say, 'Listen, mpox is not COVID-19 for a number of reasons.' First and foremost, it's much more tougher to transmit.  It's really close, in our region, close-to-close skin contact. So, then I understood that this really left a big trace, you know, this isolation, this loneliness. So, and also, we have to do some very, very critical reflection on how to do better in the next pandemic on this, which hopefully will not come for quite a while.

 

[00:21:44] Melissa Fleming

I think some of the big themes that we talked about, the big crises that we talked about, COVID-19, but also the climate crisis are responsible for why young people are feeling so anxious combined with screen time. You know, spending so much time online. I believe you have spoken or said that young people are kind of in a state of permacrisis. So, what should we do about it other than, you know, reaching out to them? What if they're online? How do we penetrate this environment and who's responsible?

 

[00:22:26] Hans Kluge

I think it's the whole of society's responsibility. We cannot stop it, and we shouldn't necessarily stop it. But there are more and more European countries, for example, who are banning mobile phones, screens from the schools, for example. I think it's very important to have breaks. This is important, number one.

Number two, to have physical activity. I mean, Iceland did amazing things by involving the schools, the parents, by telling stories at night to their children, the teachers to involve. So again, it's all doable, but it takes a strong political commitment really to... But the screen, yes, this is definitely... The screen and then to have the so-called ideal image, right, of being a young girl or a young boy and always to have to be happy, which is not life.

 

[00:23:28] Melissa Fleming

I'm just wondering these days Hans, you know, with all of what is going on in your region and in the world, what is most keeping you awake at night?

 

[00:23:38] Hans Kluge

What keeps me really awake, you know, is the hatred in society. There was a young girl who told me that she has a girlfriend. So, they're in this relationship and they were walking in a French city, you know, hand in hand. And they were so afraid, you know, because it was a relationship between two young women, that they would be attacked on the street. You know, I mean, this makes me very cold around the heart.

I mean, that is something that really can upset me and make me very, very sleepless and unhappy that people who love each other, you know, and whatever gender orientation they have, that they have to be afraid to be physically attacked. You know, in a society which in several parts in my region becomes more and more intolerant and even fueled by certain governments. I think this is very, very sad and unacceptable. And that's why it's so important to develop a positive vision for society. We shouldn't go and immediately go to violence. I think that's a very bad trend. And that really keeps me awake at night.

 

[00:25:04] Melissa Fleming

Yeah. A positive vision for the health of our society, including physical and mental health and also peace.

 

[00:25:13] Hans Kluge

Exactly. Exactly.

 

[00:25:14] Melissa Fleming

We have a formula, and we need the political will to get there. Going back to, you know, how you got here. You're from Belgium, as you mentioned. You grew up in a medical family. Your dad was a surgeon. Did you always want to be a doctor as a kid and follow in his footsteps?

 

[00:25:35] Hans Kluge

Actually, I wanted to be a missionary. You know, I come from a bit of a Catholic conservative part in Flanders, and we all had these uncles going to the African region and they came back, you know with [inaudible] these incredible stories. But, you know, as a missionary, you have what we call the iron trousers. It means, you know, you cannot marry. And that was a step too far for me. You know, because I had a girlfriend. So, in that sense, I ultimately arrived with Doctors Without Borders, which was part fulfilling my dream of adventure and part of idealism. And for this, I had to do the Institute of Tropical Medicine in Antwerp, which also opened my horizons because there you had these professors coming back from all over the world. I mean, the social responsibility.

I always say that my sister and me got it together with the porridge spoon from my parents. Because that's how we were educated. So that was there. But then to go to abroad. My father couldn't. He wanted but he came from a poorer family, so he had to earn the money for the family. I had the chance that I could always come back to my parents. I always had a roof above my head and bread and cheese, as we say. So that's how I went with MSF to Somalia and then to Liberia in very, very difficult circumstances. But I survived. Then to the prisons in Siberia.

And that's how I ultimately went from MSF to WHO, the World Health Organization in Moscow. Because when I was working in the prisons in Siberia with tuberculosis control, I met what I thought was the most beautiful girl in the village, which now we celebrated 26 years of wedding last Sunday, Katerina. And she still had to finish one year of university in Kemerovo in Siberia. But my contract was finished. And I said, 'How do I square the circle here?' And then WHO opened a position in Moscow, which I got through competition, and we could at least stay in the same country. And that's how I ultimately... You know, a little bit by coincidence that WHO offered me this opportunity. They were looking for someone who knew the Western-based medicine, but also could speak Russian and who could have the trust of the Russian colleagues. And that's how I actually fell... By falling into love, I fell into WHO professionally.

 

 

 

[00:28:00] Melissa Fleming

That's a lovely story. What did she study?

 

[00:28:05] Hans Kluge

She studied philology, so languages in Tomsk. And this was again coincidence because this was... By definition many prisons are in the taiga, in the forest. So, we were [inaudible]. You know, in apartments and I was next to her grandparents and the grandchildren were helping the grandparents over summer with the tomatoes and the potatoes on the field. And that's how in the village party we got together.

In the beginning it was difficult. I didn't speak Russian. She didn't speak English. But, you know, love is a universal language. But I was very well seen by the grandparents until they found out that something was going on with their granddaughter because my name is German. So, they were convinced somehow this was a German spy. I mean, what this German spy was doing in the prisons in Siberia? You know, not just to help the people, no? So, then the only way to get their hearts and minds back was to go and pluck potatoes in the field where they gave me a very hard time until they... And that gave me the, you know, again, the entry into the family. From one came the other, yes.

 

[00:29:15] Melissa Fleming

Yes. So that's how you learned how to build trust at the community level?

 

[00:29:20] Hans Kluge

Exactly. Exactly. By hard work, yes.

 

[00:29:23] Melissa Fleming

Picking potatoes. Yeah. How long...? I understand you spent some time with WHO, and that was the beginning of your WHO career in Russia. But then you even went to DPRK, North Korea. What was it like working there?

 

[00:29:40] Hans Kluge

Yes. So, I was based in Myanmar for five years, but there was no medical officer tuberculosis in DPRK. And that's why I was asked also to do missions there. You know, actually, people ask me this question a lot and what I say is, and I mean it, that ultimately, you know, people are not different. People are everywhere the same. What do people want? People want for their children to have a better future. Wherever I worked. I worked in three continents in many countries. You know, as a parent, you want to build a better future for your children. Of course, the environment is different. But we have to look beyond governments and look to the people.

I had the fortune that by that time I spoke Russian so I could dialogue with a number of people. Although this was a bit, I mean, cautious with some people in the hotel. I know people want the best for their children. They wanted to have medicines. They wanted to have heating during very, very cold winters. So, in that sense, I'm happy I could contribute a little bit.

Because there was a lot of discussion at that time whether WHO should continue to provide TB medicines over there because it was not always possible to monitor what happened. So, we went on missions over there and I think WHO did a great job there, really a great job. Did 100% of the medicines arrive where they have to arrive? I mean, who knows? I always say, 'Listen, if majority of the medicines arrived where they had to arrive and we saved one life, we did a good job there. We did a good job.'

 

 

 

[00:31:31] Melissa Fleming

In all of these places, including where you worked for in Liberia and Somalia, but also in Siberia, Myanmar, DPRK, you were focused on tuberculosis. What was it about that disease that was you know...? Why were you working on tuberculosis?

 

[00:31:53] Hans Kluge

So as often in life by coincidence. In Somalia, which was my first mission, I was very enthusiastic. I only learned afterwards why they advocated so much for me to go to Somalia because I found out no one else wanted. You know, this was very, very tough. But anyway, I was alone and single and full of adventurous feelings. But then what I found out with tuberculosis, it's really a disease of the poor. I mean, this is unacceptable that we still don't have a vaccine for tuberculosis. I mean, we have the BCG, but this is mainly for children. But it doesn't cure because it's a disease of the poor, of the people who are thrown out of society. It's dealing with humanity.

At the same time... I remember this. I mean in Somalia mothers would come on foot, hundreds of kilometres with their child, carrying really, almost dying. But if the child was sensitive to the medicine, I mean, it would gain weight in no time, become strong like a miracle. So, tuberculosis is curable. It's preventable. And if you have the medicines and you're susceptible to the treatment, it can really do miracles. And people were very grateful because at that time the treatment was 12 months. So, you have a very special relationship with your patient. The trick, the challenge - and by the way, still today, even with short regimens - is to keep the patient into the treatment because of the two to three months, if you don't pass away and you recover, you feel strong, but then you still have to kill the other bacilli remaining. Otherwise, you become drug resistant.

And then we had to develop all kinds of strategies, approaches to keep people adhering to the treatment. In Somalia - that they don't teach you in the schoolbooks - everyone was part of a clan. So very quickly I understood I have to negotiate here with the clan elder. So, before a patient entered into my treatment, I was sitting down with the clan elder and make a kind of a moral contract. And I understood that because I was quite young, which was a bit of a disadvantage, so that's why I was growing my beard. And fortunately, I had a very orange beard, which actually gave a lot of authority, like many of the clan elders also had an orange beard. And this helped a lot.

So, I understood you'll always have to adapt to the local culture. Don't come there arrogant, particularly from the West, you know, as a young doctor that you know it. Actually, you know very few. I learned so much from the nurses over there as a medical doctor who had seen every¡­ I had never seen a child with tetanus. And the first time, you know, they said, 'But don't you see, Doctor, this child has a tetanus, you know.' So, modesty is a very important virtue.

 

[00:34:58] Melissa Fleming

There's a lot of wisdom in these communities.

 

[00:35:01] Hans Kluge

Incredible. Absolutely. I'm so grateful to all the doctors and nurses in Africa who taught me a lot and who were very patient with me.

 

[00:35:08] Melissa Fleming

And what... The value added then of Doctors Without Borders or WHO is that you can assist them to save lives.

 

 

 

[00:35:16] Hans Kluge

Exactly. Exactly. And to go¡­ Basically to leave no one behind in very dangerous circumstances. And to be also the advocate. So, you help and save lives on the ground. But you are the witness [inaudible]. You have to do the witnessing of unacceptable things and forgotten wars. We talk a lot about Ukraine and Gaza, which is absolutely necessary. But if I talk to my colleague, the Regional Director of the Eastern Mediterranean region. I mean, there is Sudan, there is Yemen, there's Afghanistan. I mean, there are a lot of conflicts. And I always say you cannot compare suffering. You know, suffering for every individual is terrible. And we have to alleviate basically every human being's suffering.

 

[00:36:09] Melissa Fleming

And if we eliminated the wars, we would eliminate a lot.

 

[00:36:12] Hans Kluge

A lot. Absolutely. We cannot have health without peace. Peace is the most urgent medicine.

 

[00:36:22] Melissa Fleming

I love that. Peace is the most urgent medicine. Yeah. What is your dream for Europe and your region and for the health systems there?

 

[00:36:33] Hans Kluge

My dream and my vision is that we have a culture of health. It means that independent of your financial means, your sexual orientation, whether you are a documented or undocumented migrant, that you are empowered to live a healthy life. And this means that we have to have universal health coverage. You know, health is a human right. Everyone needs it.

I spoke about a dream. The nightmare, the opposite would be that we have a two-tiered society. That people - actually a little bit like in the US - people who can afford healthcare, who have an insurance, survive. Europe has been the beacon of solidarity and universal health coverage. And this is eroding and that cannot be. That cannot be. The Bible, and the Koran are telling the same sentence. They say, 'If you save one child, you have saved mankind.' You know, and that's what a public health professional can do.

 

 

 

[00:37:43] Melissa Fleming

Hans, thank you so much for your service and also thank you for this conversation.

 

[00:37:50] Hans Kluge

My pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you.

 

[00:37:54] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, and Carlos Macias. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.